move contrib/po to po/discussion

2 files changed, 459 insertions, 454 deletions

diff --git a/doc/plugins/contrib/po.mdwn b/doc/plugins/contrib/po.mdwn
deleted file mode 100644
index 665e48343..000000000
--- a/doc/plugins/contrib/po.mdwn
+++ /dev/null
@@ -1,454 +0,0 @@
-I've been working on a plugin called "po", that adds support for multi-lingual wikis,
-translated with gettext, using [po4a](http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/).
-
-More information:
-
-* It can be found in my "po" branch:
-  `git clone git://gaffer.ptitcanardnoir.org/ikiwiki.git`
-* It is self-contained, *i.e.* it does not modify ikiwiki core at all.
-* It is documented (including TODO and plans for next work steps) in
-  `doc/plugins/po.mdwn`, which can be found in the same branch.
-* No public demo site is available so far, I'm working on this.
-
-My plan is to get this plugin clean enough to be included in ikiwiki.
-
-The current version is a proof-of-concept, mature enough for me to dare submitting it here,
-but I'm prepared to hear various helpful remarks, and to rewrite parts of it as needed.
-
-Any thoughts on this?
-
-> Well, I think it's pretty stunning what you've done here. Seems very
-> complete and well thought out. I have not read the code in great detail
-> yet.
-> 
-> Just using po files is an approach I've never seen tried with a wiki. I
-> suspect it will work better for some wikis than others. For wikis that
-> just want translations that match the master language as closely as
-> possible and don't wander off and diverge, it seems perfect. (But what happens
-> if someone edits the Discussion page of a translated page?)
-> 
-> Please keep me posted, when you get closer to having all issues solved
-> and ready for merging I can do a review and hopefully help with the
-> security items you listed. --[[Joey]]
-
->> Thanks a lot for your quick review, it's reassuring to hear such nice words
->> from you. I did not want to design and write a full translation system, when
->> tools such as gettext/po4a already have all the needed functionality, for cases
->> where the master/slave languages paradigm fits.
->> Integrating these tools into ikiwiki plugin system was a pleasure.
->>
->> I'll tell you when I'm ready for merging, but in the meantime,
->> I'd like you to review the changes I did to the core (3 added hooks).
->> Can you please do this? If not, I'll go on and hope I'm not going to far in
->> the wrong direction.
->>
->>> Sure.. I'm not completly happy with any of the hooks since they're very
->>> special purpose, and also since `run_hooks` is not the best interface
->>> for a hook that modifies a variable, where only the last hook run will
->>> actually do anything. It might be better to just wrap
->>> `targetpage`, `bestlink`, and `beautify_urlpath`. But, I noticed
->>> the other day that such wrappers around exported functions are only visible by
->>> plugins loaded after the plugin that defines them.
->>> 
->>> Update: Take a look at the new "Function overriding" section of
->>> [[plugins/write]]. I think you can just inject wrappers about a few ikiwiki
->>> functions, rather than adding hooks. The `inject` function is pretty
->>> insane^Wlow level, but seems to work great. --[[Joey]]
->>>
->>>> Thanks a lot, it seems to be a nice interface for what I was trying to achieve.
->>>> I may be forced to wait two long weeks before I have a chance to confirm
->>>> this. Stay tuned. --[[intrigeri]]
->>>>
->>>>> I've updated the plugin to use `inject`. It is now fully self-contained,
->>>>> and does not modify the core anymore. --[[intrigeri]]
->>
->> The Discussion pages issue is something I am not sure about yet. But I will
->> probably decide that "slave" pages, being only translations, don't deserve
->> a discussion page: the discussion should happen in the language in which the
->> pages are written for real, which is the "master" one. --[[intrigeri]]
->> 
->> I think that's a good decision, you don't want to translate discussion,
->> and if the discussion page turns out multilingual, well, se la vi. ;-)
->> 
->> Relatedly, what happens if a translated page has a broken link, and you
->> click on it to edit it? Seems you'd first have to create a master page
->> and could only then translate it, right? I wonder if this will be clear
->> though to the user.
->>
->>> Right: a broken link points to the URL that allows to create
->>> a page that can either be a new master page or a non-translatable
->>> page, depending on `po_translatable_pages` value. The best
->>> solution I can thing of is to use [[plugins/edittemplate]] to
->>> insert something like "Warning: this is a master page, that must
->>> be written in $MASTER_LANGUAGE" into newly created master pages,
->>> and maybe another warning message on newly created
->>> non-translatable pages. It seems quite doable to me, but in order
->>> to avoid breaking existing functionality, it implies to hack a bit
->>> [[plugins/edittemplate]] so that multiple templates can be
->>> inserted at page creation time. [[--intrigeri]]
->>>
->>>> I implemented such a warning using the formbuilder_setup hook.
->>>> --[[intrigeri]]
->>
->> And also, is there any way to start a translation of a page into a new
->> lanauge using the web interface?
->>
->>> When a new language is added to `po_slave_languages`, a rebuild is
->>> triggered, and all missing PO files are created and checked into
->>> VCS. An unpriviledged wiki user can not add a new language to
->>> `po_slave_languages`, though. One could think of adding the needed
->>> interface to translate a page into a yet-unsupported slave
->>> language, and this would automagically add this new language to
->>> `po_slave_languages`. It would probably be useful in some
->>> usecases, but I'm not comfortable with letting unpriviledged wiki
->>> users change the wiki configuration as a side effect of their
->>> actions; if this were to be implemented, special care would be
->>> needed. [[--intrigeri]]
->>>
->>>> Actually I meant into any of the currently supported languages.
->>>> I guess that if the template modification is made, it will list those
->>>> languages on the page, and if a translation to a language is missing,
->>>> the link will allow creating it?
->>>>
->>>>> Any translation page always exist for every supported slave
->>>>> language, even if no string at all have been translated yet.
->>>>> This implies the po plugin is especially friendly to people who
->>>>> prefer reading in their native language if available, but don't
->>>>> mind reading in English else.
->>>>>
->>>>> While I'm at it, there is a remaining issue that needs to be
->>>>> sorted out: how painful it could be for non-English speakers
->>>>> (assuming the master language is English) to be perfectly able
->>>>> to navigate between translation pages supposed to be written in
->>>>> their own language, when their translation level is most
->>>>> often low.
->>>>>
->>>>> (It is currently easy to display this status on the translation
->>>>> page itself, but then it's too late, and how frustrating to load
->>>>> a page just to realize it's actually not translated enough for
->>>>> you. The "other languages" loop also allows displaying this
->>>>> information, but it is generally not the primary
->>>>> navigation tool.)
->>>>>
->>>>> IMHO, this is actually a social problem (i.e. it's no use adding
->>>>> a language to the supported slave ones if you don't have the
->>>>> manpower to actually do the translations), that can't be fully
->>>>> solved by technical solutions, but I can think of some hacks
->>>>> that would limit the negative impact: a given translation's
->>>>> status (currently = percent translated) could be displayed next
->>>>> to the link that leads to it; a color code could as well be used
->>>>> ("just" a matter of adding a CSS id or class to the links,
->>>>> depending on this variable). As there is already work to be done
->>>>> to have the links text generation more customizable through
->>>>> plugins, I could do both at the same time if we consider this
->>>>> matter to be important enough. --[[intrigeri]]
->>>>>
->>>>>> The translation status in links is now implemented in my
->>>>>> `po`branch. It requires my `meta` branch changes to
->>>>>> work, though. I consider the latter to be mature enough to
->>>>>> be merged. --[[intrigeri]]
-
->> FWIW, I'm tracking your po branch in ikiwiki master git in the po
->> branch. One thing I'd like to try in there is setting up a translated
->> basewiki, which seems like it should be pretty easy to do, and would be
->> a great demo! --[[Joey]]
->>
->>> I have a complete translation of basewiki into danish, and am working with
->>> others on preparing one in german.  For a complete translated user
->>> experience, however, you will also need templates translated (there are a few
->>> translatable strings there too).  My not-yet-merged po4a Markdown improvements
->>> (see [bug#530574](http://bugs.debian.org/530574)) correctly handles multiple
->>> files in a single PO which might be relevant for template translation handling.
->>> --[[JonasSmedegaard]]
->>
->>> I've merged your changes into my own branch, and made great
->>> progress on the various todo items. Please note my repository
->>> location has changed a few days ago, my user page was updated
->>> accordingly, but I forgot to update this page at the same time.
->>> Hoping it's not too complicated to relocated an existing remote...
->>> (never done that, I'm a Git beginner as well as a Perl
->>> newbie) --[[intrigeri]]
->>>>
->>>> Just a matter of editing .git/config, thanks for the heads up.
->>>>>
->>>>> Joey, please have a look at my branch, your help would be really
->>>>> welcome for the security research, as I'm almost done with what
->>>>> I am able to do myself in this area. --[[intrigeri]]
->>>>>>
->>>>>> I came up with a patch for the WrapI18N issue --[[Joey]]
-
-I've set this plugin development aside for a while. I will be back and
-finish it at some point in the first quarter of 2009. --[[intrigeri]]
-
-> Abstract: Joey, please have a look at my po and meta branches.
-> 
-> Detailed progress report:
-> 
-> * it seems the po branch in your repository has not been tracking my
->   own po branch for two months. any config issue?
-> * all the plugin's todo items have been completed, robustness tests
->   done
-> * I've finished the detailed security audit, and the fix for po4a
->   bugs has entered upstream CVS last week
-> * I've merged your new `checkcontent` hook with the `cansave` hook
->   I previously introduced in my own branch; blogspam plugin updated
->   accordingly
-> * the rename hook changes we discussed elsewhere are also part of my
->   branch
-> * I've introduced two new hooks (`canremove` and `canrename`), not
->   a big deal; IMHO, they extend quite logically the plugin interface
-> * as highlighted on [[bugs/pagetitle_function_does_not_respect_meta_titles]],
->   my `meta` branch contains a new feature that is really useful in a
->   translatable wiki
-> 
-> As a conclusion, I'm feeling that my branches are ready to be
-> merged; only thing missing, I guess, are a bit of discussion and
-> subsequent adjustments.
-> 
-> --[[intrigeri]]
-
-> I've looked it over and updated my branch with some (untested)
-> changes.
-> 
->> I've merged your changes into my branch. Only one was buggy.
-> 
-> Sorry, I'd forgotten about your cansave hook.. sorry for the duplicate
-> work there.
-> 
-> Reviewing the changes, mostly outside of `po.pm`, I have
-> the following issues.
->  
-> * renamepage to renamelink change would break the ikiwiki
->   3.x API, which I've promised not to do, so needs to be avoided
->   somehow. (Sorry, I guess I dropped the ball on not getting this
->   API change in before cutting 3.0..)
->> 
->> Fixed, see [[todo/need_global_renamepage_hook]].
->>
-> * I don't understand the parentlinks code change and need to figure it
->   out. Can you explain what is going on there?
->> 
->> I'm calling `bestlink` there so that po's injected `bestlink` is
->> run. This way, the parent links of a page link to the parent page
->> version in the proper language, depending on the
->> `po_link_to=current` and `po_link_to=negotiated` settings.
->> Moreover, when using my meta branch enhancements plus meta title to
->> make pages titles translatable, this small patch is needed to get
->> the translated titles into parentlinks.
->> 
-> * canrename's mix of positional and named parameters is way too
->   ugly to get into an ikiwiki API. Use named parameters
->   entirely. Also probably should just use named parameters
->   for canremove.
-> * `skeleton.pm.example`'s canrename needs fixing to use either
->   the current or my suggested parameters.
->> 
->> Done.
->> 
-> * I don't like the exporting of `%backlinks` and `$backlinks_calculated`
->   (the latter is exported but not used).
->> 
->> The commit message for 85f865b5d98e0122934d11e3f3eb6703e4f4c620
->> contains the rationale for this change. I guess I don't understand
->> the subtleties of `our` use, and perldoc does not help me a lot.
->> IIRC, I actually did not use `our` to "export" these variables, but
->> rather to have them shared between `Render.pm` uses.
->>
->>> My wording was unclear, I meant exposing. --[[Joey]]
->>>  
->>>> I guess I still don't know Perl's `our` enough to understand clearly.
->>>> No matter whether these variables are declared with `my` or `our`,
->>>> any plugin can `use IkiWiki::Render` and then access
->>>> `$IkiWiki::backlinks`, as already does e.g. the pagestat plugin.
->>>> So I guess your problem is not with letting plugins use these
->>>> variables, but with them being visible for every piece of
->>>> (possibly external) code called from `Render.pm`. Am I right?
->>>> If I understand clearly, using a brace block to lexically enclose
->>>> these two `our` declarations, alongside with the `calculate_backlinks`
->>>> and `backlinks` subs definitions, would be a proper solution, wouldn't
->>>> it? --[[intrigeri]]
->>>>
->>>>> No, %backlinks and the backlinks() function are not the same thing.
->>>>> The variable is lexically scoped; only accessible from inside
->>>>> `Render.pm` --[[Joey]] 
->>>> 
-> * What is this `IkiWiki::nicepagetitle` and why are you
->   injecting it into that namespace when only your module uses it?
->   Actually, I can't even find a caller of it in your module.
->> 
->> I guess you should have a look to my `meta` branch and to
->> [[bugs/pagetitle_function_does_not_respect_meta_titles]] in order
->> to understand this :)
->>
->>> It would probably be good if I could merge this branch without 
->>> having to worry about also immediatly merging that one. --[[Joey]] 
->>> 
->>>> I removed all dependencies on my `meta` branch from the `po` one.
->>>> This implied removing the `po_translation_status_in_links` and
->>>> `po_strictly_refresh_backlinks` features, and every link text is now
->>>> displayed in the master language. I believe the removed features really
->>>> enhance user experience of a translatable wiki, that's why I was
->>>> initially supposing the `meta` branch would be merged first.
->>>> IMHO, we'll need to come back to this quite soon after `po` is merged.
->>>> --[[intrigeri]]
->>>>
->>>> Maybe you should keep those features in a meta-po branch?
->>>> I did a cursory review of your meta last night, have some issues with it, 
->>>> but this page isn't the place for a detailed review. --[[Joey]] 
->>>>
->>>>> Done. --[[intrigeri]]
->>> 
-> * I'm very fearful of the `add_depends` in `postscan`. 
->   Does this make every page depend on every page that links
->   to it? Won't this absurdly bloat the dependency pagespecs
->   and slow everything down? And since nicepagetitle is given
->   as the reason for doing it, and nicepagetitle isn't used,
->   why do it?
->> 
->> As explained in the 85f865b5d98e0122934d11e3f3eb6703e4f4c620 log:
->> this feature hits performance a bit. Its cost was quite small in my
->> real-world use-cases (a few percents bigger refresh time), but
->> could be bigger in worst cases. When using the po plugin with my
->> meta branch changes (i.e. the `nicepagetitle` thing), and having
->> enabled the option to display translation status in links, this
->> maintains the translation status up-to-date in backlinks. Same when
->> using meta title to make the pages titles translatable. It does
->> help having a nice and consistent translated wiki, but as it can
->> also involve problems, I just turned it into an option.
->> 
->>> This has been completely removed for now due to the removal of
->>> the dependency on my `meta` branch. --[[intrigeri]]
->> 
-> * The po4a Suggests should be versioned to the first version
->   that can be used safely, and that version documented in 
->   `plugins/po.mdwn`.
->>
->> Done.
->> 
->> --[[intrigeri]]
-> 
-> --[[Joey]] 
-
-I reverted the `%backlinks` and `$backlinks_calculated` exposing.
-The issue they were solving probably will arise again when I'll work
-on my meta branch again (i.e. when the simplified po one is merged),
-but the po thing is supposed to work without these ugly `our`.
-Seems like it was the last unaddressed item from Joey's review, so I'm
-daring a timid "please pull"... or rather, please review again :)
---[[intrigeri]]
-
-> Ok, I've reviewed and merged into my own po branch. It's looking very
-> mergeable.
-> 
-> * Is it worth trying to fix compatability with `indexpages`?
->> 
->> Supporting `usedirs` being enabled or disabled was already quite
->> hard IIRC, so supporting all four combinations of `usedirs` and
->> `indexpages` settings will probably be painful. I propose we forget
->> about it until someone reports he/she badly needs it, and then
->> we'll see what can be done.
->> 
-> * Would it make sense to go ahead and modify `page.tmpl` to use
->   OTHERLANGUAGES and PERCENTTRANSLATED, instead of documenting how to modify it?
->> 
->> Done in my branch.
->> 
-> * Would it be better to disable po support for pages that use unsupported
->   or poorly-supported markup languages?
-> 
->> I prefer keeping it enabled, as:
->> 
->> * most wiki markups "almost work"
->> * when someone needs one of these to be fully supported, it's not
->>   that hard to add dedicated support for it to po4a; if it were
->>   disabled, I fear the ones who could do this would maybe think
->>   it's blandly impossible and give up.
->> 
- 
-> * What's the reasoning behind checking that the link plugin
->   is enabled? AFAICS, the same code in the scan hook should
->   also work when other link plugins like camelcase are used.
->> 
->> That's right, fixed.
->> 
-> * In `pagetemplate` there is a comment that claims the code
->   relies on `genpage`, but I don't see how it does; it seems
->   to always add a discussion link?
->> 
->> It relies on IkiWiki::Render's `genpage` as this function sets the
->> `discussionlink` template param iff it considers a discussion link
->> should appear on the current page. That's why I'm testing
->> `$template->param('discussionlink')`.
->> 
->>> Maybe I was really wondering why it says it could lead to a broken
->>> link if the cgiurl is disabled. I think I see why now: Discussionlink
->>> will be set to a link to an existing disucssion page, even if cgi is
->>> disabled -- but there's no guarantee of a translated discussion page
->>> existing in that case. *However*, htmllink actually checks
->>> for this case, and will avoid generating a broken link so AFAICS, the
->>> comment is actually innacurate.. what will really happen in this case
->>> is discussionlink will be set to a non-link translation of
->>> "discussion". Also, I consider `$config{cgi}` and `%links` (etc)
->>> documented parts of the plugin interface, which won't change; po could
->>> rely on them to avoid this minor problem. --[[Joey]] 
->>>> 
->>>> Done in my branch. --[[intrigeri]]
->>>> 
->
-> * Is there any real reason not to allow removing a translation?
->   I'm imagining a spammy translation, which an admin might not
->   be able to fix, but could remove.
->> 
->> On the other hand, allowing one to "remove" a translation would
->> probably lead to misunderstandings, as such a "removed" translation
->> page would appear back as soon as it is "removed" (with no strings
->> translated, though). I think an admin would be in a position to
->> delete the spammy `.po` file by hand using whatever VCS is in use.
->> Not that I'd really care, but I am slightly in favour of the way
->> it currently works.
->>
->>> That would definitly be confusing. It sounds to me like if we end up
->>> needing to allow web-based deletion of spammy translations, it will
->>> need improvements to the deletion UI to de-confuse that. It's fine to
->>> put that off until needed --[[Joey]] 
->> 
-> * Re the meta title escaping issue worked around by `change`. 
->   I suppose this does not only affect meta, but other things
->   at scan time too. Also, handling it only on rebuild feels
->   suspicious -- a refresh could involve changes to multiple
->   pages and trigger the same problem, I think. Also, exposing
->   this rebuild to the user seems really ugly, not confidence inducing.
->   
->   So I wonder if there's a better way. Such as making po, at scan time,
->   re-run the scan hooks, passing them modified content (either converted
->   from po to mdwn or with the escaped stuff cheaply de-escaped). (Of
->   course the scan hook would need to avoid calling itself!)
-> 
->   (This doesn't need to block the merge, but I hope it can be addressed
->   eventually..)
->  
-> --[[Joey]] 
->> 
->> I'll think about it soon.
->> 
->> --[[intrigeri]]
->>
->>> Did you get a chance to? --[[Joey]] 
-
- * As discussed at [[todo/l10n]] the templates needs to be translatable too.  They
-   should be treated properly by po4a using the markdown option - at least with my
-   later patches in [bug#530574](http://bugs.debian.org/530574)) applied.
-
- * It seems to me that the po plugin (and possibly other parts of ikiwiki) wrongly
-   uses gettext.  As I understand it, gettext (as used currently in ikiwiki) always
-   lookup a single language, That might make sense for a single-language site, but
-   multilingual sites should emit all strings targeted at the web output in each own
-   language.
-
-   So generally the system language (used for e.g. compile warnings) should be separated
-   from both master language and slave languages.
-
-   Preferrably the gettext subroutine could be extended to pass locale as optional
-   secondary parameter overriding the default locale (for messages like "N/A" as
-   percentage in po plugin).  Alternatively (with above mentioned template support)
-   all such strings could be externalized as templates that can then be localized.
diff --git a/doc/plugins/po/discussion.mdwn b/doc/plugins/po/discussion.mdwn
index 570b2a6ef..5e923d0e0 100644
--- a/doc/plugins/po/discussion.mdwn
+++ b/doc/plugins/po/discussion.mdwn
@@ -206,3 +206,462 @@ section.
 
 ## Fixed holes
 
+
+----
+
+## original contrib/po page, with old commentary
+
+I've been working on a plugin called "po", that adds support for multi-lingual wikis,
+translated with gettext, using [po4a](http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/).
+
+More information:
+
+* It can be found in my "po" branch:
+  `git clone git://gaffer.ptitcanardnoir.org/ikiwiki.git`
+* It is self-contained, *i.e.* it does not modify ikiwiki core at all.
+* It is documented (including TODO and plans for next work steps) in
+  `doc/plugins/po.mdwn`, which can be found in the same branch.
+* No public demo site is available so far, I'm working on this.
+
+My plan is to get this plugin clean enough to be included in ikiwiki.
+
+The current version is a proof-of-concept, mature enough for me to dare submitting it here,
+but I'm prepared to hear various helpful remarks, and to rewrite parts of it as needed.
+
+Any thoughts on this?
+
+> Well, I think it's pretty stunning what you've done here. Seems very
+> complete and well thought out. I have not read the code in great detail
+> yet.
+> 
+> Just using po files is an approach I've never seen tried with a wiki. I
+> suspect it will work better for some wikis than others. For wikis that
+> just want translations that match the master language as closely as
+> possible and don't wander off and diverge, it seems perfect. (But what happens
+> if someone edits the Discussion page of a translated page?)
+> 
+> Please keep me posted, when you get closer to having all issues solved
+> and ready for merging I can do a review and hopefully help with the
+> security items you listed. --[[Joey]]
+
+>> Thanks a lot for your quick review, it's reassuring to hear such nice words
+>> from you. I did not want to design and write a full translation system, when
+>> tools such as gettext/po4a already have all the needed functionality, for cases
+>> where the master/slave languages paradigm fits.
+>> Integrating these tools into ikiwiki plugin system was a pleasure.
+>>
+>> I'll tell you when I'm ready for merging, but in the meantime,
+>> I'd like you to review the changes I did to the core (3 added hooks).
+>> Can you please do this? If not, I'll go on and hope I'm not going to far in
+>> the wrong direction.
+>>
+>>> Sure.. I'm not completly happy with any of the hooks since they're very
+>>> special purpose, and also since `run_hooks` is not the best interface
+>>> for a hook that modifies a variable, where only the last hook run will
+>>> actually do anything. It might be better to just wrap
+>>> `targetpage`, `bestlink`, and `beautify_urlpath`. But, I noticed
+>>> the other day that such wrappers around exported functions are only visible by
+>>> plugins loaded after the plugin that defines them.
+>>> 
+>>> Update: Take a look at the new "Function overriding" section of
+>>> [[plugins/write]]. I think you can just inject wrappers about a few ikiwiki
+>>> functions, rather than adding hooks. The `inject` function is pretty
+>>> insane^Wlow level, but seems to work great. --[[Joey]]
+>>>
+>>>> Thanks a lot, it seems to be a nice interface for what I was trying to achieve.
+>>>> I may be forced to wait two long weeks before I have a chance to confirm
+>>>> this. Stay tuned. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>
+>>>>> I've updated the plugin to use `inject`. It is now fully self-contained,
+>>>>> and does not modify the core anymore. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>
+>> The Discussion pages issue is something I am not sure about yet. But I will
+>> probably decide that "slave" pages, being only translations, don't deserve
+>> a discussion page: the discussion should happen in the language in which the
+>> pages are written for real, which is the "master" one. --[[intrigeri]]
+>> 
+>> I think that's a good decision, you don't want to translate discussion,
+>> and if the discussion page turns out multilingual, well, se la vi. ;-)
+>> 
+>> Relatedly, what happens if a translated page has a broken link, and you
+>> click on it to edit it? Seems you'd first have to create a master page
+>> and could only then translate it, right? I wonder if this will be clear
+>> though to the user.
+>>
+>>> Right: a broken link points to the URL that allows to create
+>>> a page that can either be a new master page or a non-translatable
+>>> page, depending on `po_translatable_pages` value. The best
+>>> solution I can thing of is to use [[plugins/edittemplate]] to
+>>> insert something like "Warning: this is a master page, that must
+>>> be written in $MASTER_LANGUAGE" into newly created master pages,
+>>> and maybe another warning message on newly created
+>>> non-translatable pages. It seems quite doable to me, but in order
+>>> to avoid breaking existing functionality, it implies to hack a bit
+>>> [[plugins/edittemplate]] so that multiple templates can be
+>>> inserted at page creation time. [[--intrigeri]]
+>>>
+>>>> I implemented such a warning using the formbuilder_setup hook.
+>>>> --[[intrigeri]]
+>>
+>> And also, is there any way to start a translation of a page into a new
+>> lanauge using the web interface?
+>>
+>>> When a new language is added to `po_slave_languages`, a rebuild is
+>>> triggered, and all missing PO files are created and checked into
+>>> VCS. An unpriviledged wiki user can not add a new language to
+>>> `po_slave_languages`, though. One could think of adding the needed
+>>> interface to translate a page into a yet-unsupported slave
+>>> language, and this would automagically add this new language to
+>>> `po_slave_languages`. It would probably be useful in some
+>>> usecases, but I'm not comfortable with letting unpriviledged wiki
+>>> users change the wiki configuration as a side effect of their
+>>> actions; if this were to be implemented, special care would be
+>>> needed. [[--intrigeri]]
+>>>
+>>>> Actually I meant into any of the currently supported languages.
+>>>> I guess that if the template modification is made, it will list those
+>>>> languages on the page, and if a translation to a language is missing,
+>>>> the link will allow creating it?
+>>>>
+>>>>> Any translation page always exist for every supported slave
+>>>>> language, even if no string at all have been translated yet.
+>>>>> This implies the po plugin is especially friendly to people who
+>>>>> prefer reading in their native language if available, but don't
+>>>>> mind reading in English else.
+>>>>>
+>>>>> While I'm at it, there is a remaining issue that needs to be
+>>>>> sorted out: how painful it could be for non-English speakers
+>>>>> (assuming the master language is English) to be perfectly able
+>>>>> to navigate between translation pages supposed to be written in
+>>>>> their own language, when their translation level is most
+>>>>> often low.
+>>>>>
+>>>>> (It is currently easy to display this status on the translation
+>>>>> page itself, but then it's too late, and how frustrating to load
+>>>>> a page just to realize it's actually not translated enough for
+>>>>> you. The "other languages" loop also allows displaying this
+>>>>> information, but it is generally not the primary
+>>>>> navigation tool.)
+>>>>>
+>>>>> IMHO, this is actually a social problem (i.e. it's no use adding
+>>>>> a language to the supported slave ones if you don't have the
+>>>>> manpower to actually do the translations), that can't be fully
+>>>>> solved by technical solutions, but I can think of some hacks
+>>>>> that would limit the negative impact: a given translation's
+>>>>> status (currently = percent translated) could be displayed next
+>>>>> to the link that leads to it; a color code could as well be used
+>>>>> ("just" a matter of adding a CSS id or class to the links,
+>>>>> depending on this variable). As there is already work to be done
+>>>>> to have the links text generation more customizable through
+>>>>> plugins, I could do both at the same time if we consider this
+>>>>> matter to be important enough. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>>
+>>>>>> The translation status in links is now implemented in my
+>>>>>> `po`branch. It requires my `meta` branch changes to
+>>>>>> work, though. I consider the latter to be mature enough to
+>>>>>> be merged. --[[intrigeri]]
+
+>> FWIW, I'm tracking your po branch in ikiwiki master git in the po
+>> branch. One thing I'd like to try in there is setting up a translated
+>> basewiki, which seems like it should be pretty easy to do, and would be
+>> a great demo! --[[Joey]]
+>>
+>>> I have a complete translation of basewiki into danish, and am working with
+>>> others on preparing one in german.  For a complete translated user
+>>> experience, however, you will also need templates translated (there are a few
+>>> translatable strings there too).  My not-yet-merged po4a Markdown improvements
+>>> (see [bug#530574](http://bugs.debian.org/530574)) correctly handles multiple
+>>> files in a single PO which might be relevant for template translation handling.
+>>> --[[JonasSmedegaard]]
+>>
+>>> I've merged your changes into my own branch, and made great
+>>> progress on the various todo items. Please note my repository
+>>> location has changed a few days ago, my user page was updated
+>>> accordingly, but I forgot to update this page at the same time.
+>>> Hoping it's not too complicated to relocated an existing remote...
+>>> (never done that, I'm a Git beginner as well as a Perl
+>>> newbie) --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>
+>>>> Just a matter of editing .git/config, thanks for the heads up.
+>>>>>
+>>>>> Joey, please have a look at my branch, your help would be really
+>>>>> welcome for the security research, as I'm almost done with what
+>>>>> I am able to do myself in this area. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>>>
+>>>>>> I came up with a patch for the WrapI18N issue --[[Joey]]
+
+I've set this plugin development aside for a while. I will be back and
+finish it at some point in the first quarter of 2009. --[[intrigeri]]
+
+> Abstract: Joey, please have a look at my po and meta branches.
+> 
+> Detailed progress report:
+> 
+> * it seems the po branch in your repository has not been tracking my
+>   own po branch for two months. any config issue?
+> * all the plugin's todo items have been completed, robustness tests
+>   done
+> * I've finished the detailed security audit, and the fix for po4a
+>   bugs has entered upstream CVS last week
+> * I've merged your new `checkcontent` hook with the `cansave` hook
+>   I previously introduced in my own branch; blogspam plugin updated
+>   accordingly
+> * the rename hook changes we discussed elsewhere are also part of my
+>   branch
+> * I've introduced two new hooks (`canremove` and `canrename`), not
+>   a big deal; IMHO, they extend quite logically the plugin interface
+> * as highlighted on [[bugs/pagetitle_function_does_not_respect_meta_titles]],
+>   my `meta` branch contains a new feature that is really useful in a
+>   translatable wiki
+> 
+> As a conclusion, I'm feeling that my branches are ready to be
+> merged; only thing missing, I guess, are a bit of discussion and
+> subsequent adjustments.
+> 
+> --[[intrigeri]]
+
+> I've looked it over and updated my branch with some (untested)
+> changes.
+> 
+>> I've merged your changes into my branch. Only one was buggy.
+> 
+> Sorry, I'd forgotten about your cansave hook.. sorry for the duplicate
+> work there.
+> 
+> Reviewing the changes, mostly outside of `po.pm`, I have
+> the following issues.
+>  
+> * renamepage to renamelink change would break the ikiwiki
+>   3.x API, which I've promised not to do, so needs to be avoided
+>   somehow. (Sorry, I guess I dropped the ball on not getting this
+>   API change in before cutting 3.0..)
+>> 
+>> Fixed, see [[todo/need_global_renamepage_hook]].
+>>
+> * I don't understand the parentlinks code change and need to figure it
+>   out. Can you explain what is going on there?
+>> 
+>> I'm calling `bestlink` there so that po's injected `bestlink` is
+>> run. This way, the parent links of a page link to the parent page
+>> version in the proper language, depending on the
+>> `po_link_to=current` and `po_link_to=negotiated` settings.
+>> Moreover, when using my meta branch enhancements plus meta title to
+>> make pages titles translatable, this small patch is needed to get
+>> the translated titles into parentlinks.
+>> 
+> * canrename's mix of positional and named parameters is way too
+>   ugly to get into an ikiwiki API. Use named parameters
+>   entirely. Also probably should just use named parameters
+>   for canremove.
+> * `skeleton.pm.example`'s canrename needs fixing to use either
+>   the current or my suggested parameters.
+>> 
+>> Done.
+>> 
+> * I don't like the exporting of `%backlinks` and `$backlinks_calculated`
+>   (the latter is exported but not used).
+>> 
+>> The commit message for 85f865b5d98e0122934d11e3f3eb6703e4f4c620
+>> contains the rationale for this change. I guess I don't understand
+>> the subtleties of `our` use, and perldoc does not help me a lot.
+>> IIRC, I actually did not use `our` to "export" these variables, but
+>> rather to have them shared between `Render.pm` uses.
+>>
+>>> My wording was unclear, I meant exposing. --[[Joey]]
+>>>  
+>>>> I guess I still don't know Perl's `our` enough to understand clearly.
+>>>> No matter whether these variables are declared with `my` or `our`,
+>>>> any plugin can `use IkiWiki::Render` and then access
+>>>> `$IkiWiki::backlinks`, as already does e.g. the pagestat plugin.
+>>>> So I guess your problem is not with letting plugins use these
+>>>> variables, but with them being visible for every piece of
+>>>> (possibly external) code called from `Render.pm`. Am I right?
+>>>> If I understand clearly, using a brace block to lexically enclose
+>>>> these two `our` declarations, alongside with the `calculate_backlinks`
+>>>> and `backlinks` subs definitions, would be a proper solution, wouldn't
+>>>> it? --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>
+>>>>> No, %backlinks and the backlinks() function are not the same thing.
+>>>>> The variable is lexically scoped; only accessible from inside
+>>>>> `Render.pm` --[[Joey]] 
+>>>> 
+> * What is this `IkiWiki::nicepagetitle` and why are you
+>   injecting it into that namespace when only your module uses it?
+>   Actually, I can't even find a caller of it in your module.
+>> 
+>> I guess you should have a look to my `meta` branch and to
+>> [[bugs/pagetitle_function_does_not_respect_meta_titles]] in order
+>> to understand this :)
+>>
+>>> It would probably be good if I could merge this branch without 
+>>> having to worry about also immediatly merging that one. --[[Joey]] 
+>>> 
+>>>> I removed all dependencies on my `meta` branch from the `po` one.
+>>>> This implied removing the `po_translation_status_in_links` and
+>>>> `po_strictly_refresh_backlinks` features, and every link text is now
+>>>> displayed in the master language. I believe the removed features really
+>>>> enhance user experience of a translatable wiki, that's why I was
+>>>> initially supposing the `meta` branch would be merged first.
+>>>> IMHO, we'll need to come back to this quite soon after `po` is merged.
+>>>> --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>
+>>>> Maybe you should keep those features in a meta-po branch?
+>>>> I did a cursory review of your meta last night, have some issues with it, 
+>>>> but this page isn't the place for a detailed review. --[[Joey]] 
+>>>>
+>>>>> Done. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>> 
+> * I'm very fearful of the `add_depends` in `postscan`. 
+>   Does this make every page depend on every page that links
+>   to it? Won't this absurdly bloat the dependency pagespecs
+>   and slow everything down? And since nicepagetitle is given
+>   as the reason for doing it, and nicepagetitle isn't used,
+>   why do it?
+>> 
+>> As explained in the 85f865b5d98e0122934d11e3f3eb6703e4f4c620 log:
+>> this feature hits performance a bit. Its cost was quite small in my
+>> real-world use-cases (a few percents bigger refresh time), but
+>> could be bigger in worst cases. When using the po plugin with my
+>> meta branch changes (i.e. the `nicepagetitle` thing), and having
+>> enabled the option to display translation status in links, this
+>> maintains the translation status up-to-date in backlinks. Same when
+>> using meta title to make the pages titles translatable. It does
+>> help having a nice and consistent translated wiki, but as it can
+>> also involve problems, I just turned it into an option.
+>> 
+>>> This has been completely removed for now due to the removal of
+>>> the dependency on my `meta` branch. --[[intrigeri]]
+>> 
+> * The po4a Suggests should be versioned to the first version
+>   that can be used safely, and that version documented in 
+>   `plugins/po.mdwn`.
+>>
+>> Done.
+>> 
+>> --[[intrigeri]]
+> 
+> --[[Joey]] 
+
+I reverted the `%backlinks` and `$backlinks_calculated` exposing.
+The issue they were solving probably will arise again when I'll work
+on my meta branch again (i.e. when the simplified po one is merged),
+but the po thing is supposed to work without these ugly `our`.
+Seems like it was the last unaddressed item from Joey's review, so I'm
+daring a timid "please pull"... or rather, please review again :)
+--[[intrigeri]]
+
+> Ok, I've reviewed and merged into my own po branch. It's looking very
+> mergeable.
+> 
+> * Is it worth trying to fix compatability with `indexpages`?
+>> 
+>> Supporting `usedirs` being enabled or disabled was already quite
+>> hard IIRC, so supporting all four combinations of `usedirs` and
+>> `indexpages` settings will probably be painful. I propose we forget
+>> about it until someone reports he/she badly needs it, and then
+>> we'll see what can be done.
+>> 
+> * Would it make sense to go ahead and modify `page.tmpl` to use
+>   OTHERLANGUAGES and PERCENTTRANSLATED, instead of documenting how to modify it?
+>> 
+>> Done in my branch.
+>> 
+> * Would it be better to disable po support for pages that use unsupported
+>   or poorly-supported markup languages?
+> 
+>> I prefer keeping it enabled, as:
+>> 
+>> * most wiki markups "almost work"
+>> * when someone needs one of these to be fully supported, it's not
+>>   that hard to add dedicated support for it to po4a; if it were
+>>   disabled, I fear the ones who could do this would maybe think
+>>   it's blandly impossible and give up.
+>> 
+ 
+> * What's the reasoning behind checking that the link plugin
+>   is enabled? AFAICS, the same code in the scan hook should
+>   also work when other link plugins like camelcase are used.
+>> 
+>> That's right, fixed.
+>> 
+> * In `pagetemplate` there is a comment that claims the code
+>   relies on `genpage`, but I don't see how it does; it seems
+>   to always add a discussion link?
+>> 
+>> It relies on IkiWiki::Render's `genpage` as this function sets the
+>> `discussionlink` template param iff it considers a discussion link
+>> should appear on the current page. That's why I'm testing
+>> `$template->param('discussionlink')`.
+>> 
+>>> Maybe I was really wondering why it says it could lead to a broken
+>>> link if the cgiurl is disabled. I think I see why now: Discussionlink
+>>> will be set to a link to an existing disucssion page, even if cgi is
+>>> disabled -- but there's no guarantee of a translated discussion page
+>>> existing in that case. *However*, htmllink actually checks
+>>> for this case, and will avoid generating a broken link so AFAICS, the
+>>> comment is actually innacurate.. what will really happen in this case
+>>> is discussionlink will be set to a non-link translation of
+>>> "discussion". Also, I consider `$config{cgi}` and `%links` (etc)
+>>> documented parts of the plugin interface, which won't change; po could
+>>> rely on them to avoid this minor problem. --[[Joey]] 
+>>>> 
+>>>> Done in my branch. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>> 
+>
+> * Is there any real reason not to allow removing a translation?
+>   I'm imagining a spammy translation, which an admin might not
+>   be able to fix, but could remove.
+>> 
+>> On the other hand, allowing one to "remove" a translation would
+>> probably lead to misunderstandings, as such a "removed" translation
+>> page would appear back as soon as it is "removed" (with no strings
+>> translated, though). I think an admin would be in a position to
+>> delete the spammy `.po` file by hand using whatever VCS is in use.
+>> Not that I'd really care, but I am slightly in favour of the way
+>> it currently works.
+>>
+>>> That would definitly be confusing. It sounds to me like if we end up
+>>> needing to allow web-based deletion of spammy translations, it will
+>>> need improvements to the deletion UI to de-confuse that. It's fine to
+>>> put that off until needed --[[Joey]] 
+>> 
+> * Re the meta title escaping issue worked around by `change`. 
+>   I suppose this does not only affect meta, but other things
+>   at scan time too. Also, handling it only on rebuild feels
+>   suspicious -- a refresh could involve changes to multiple
+>   pages and trigger the same problem, I think. Also, exposing
+>   this rebuild to the user seems really ugly, not confidence inducing.
+>   
+>   So I wonder if there's a better way. Such as making po, at scan time,
+>   re-run the scan hooks, passing them modified content (either converted
+>   from po to mdwn or with the escaped stuff cheaply de-escaped). (Of
+>   course the scan hook would need to avoid calling itself!)
+> 
+>   (This doesn't need to block the merge, but I hope it can be addressed
+>   eventually..)
+>  
+> --[[Joey]] 
+>> 
+>> I'll think about it soon.
+>> 
+>> --[[intrigeri]]
+>>
+>>> Did you get a chance to? --[[Joey]] 
+
+ * As discussed at [[todo/l10n]] the templates needs to be translatable too.  They
+   should be treated properly by po4a using the markdown option - at least with my
+   later patches in [bug#530574](http://bugs.debian.org/530574)) applied.
+
+ * It seems to me that the po plugin (and possibly other parts of ikiwiki) wrongly
+   uses gettext.  As I understand it, gettext (as used currently in ikiwiki) always
+   lookup a single language, That might make sense for a single-language site, but
+   multilingual sites should emit all strings targeted at the web output in each own
+   language.
+
+   So generally the system language (used for e.g. compile warnings) should be separated
+   from both master language and slave languages.
+
+   Preferrably the gettext subroutine could be extended to pass locale as optional
+   secondary parameter overriding the default locale (for messages like "N/A" as
+   percentage in po plugin).  Alternatively (with above mentioned template support)
+   all such strings could be externalized as templates that can then be localized.